Tar Sands: The Oil Junkie's Last Fix, Part 1

This is a guest post by Chris Nelder. It was originally written for Friday's Energy and Capital. Part II will be available next Friday.

For this week's article, I collaborated with energy journalist Roel Mayer, a freelance writer on earth, energy and economy, based in Canada. Roel is a keen observer on energy, and the Canadian tar sands in particular, so he was a natural research partner for this short study on the state of oil production from tar sands.

He was also the one who coined "The Law of Receding Horizons." For those who missed my previous articles on receding horizons, it is a simple concept: as the cost of energy rises, the cost of everything else made with energy (like building materials) also rises. So an energy project which was expected to be profitable when energy costs were x amount higher than today, turns out to still be uneconomical when you get there.



Shallow oil sand deposits in open pit mining: yes, this was a boreal forest from time immemorial.

And the tar sands of Alberta are shaping up to be the oil industry's poster child of this phenomenon. With oil well over $60 today, the low-grade sludge called kerogen that we recover from tar sand--actually more like a putty, at room temperature, which is why I refuse to use the whitewashing term "oil sands--should be highly profitable.

But paradoxically, the impending decline of global crude oil production, which is now coming clearly into view, has led to a mad rush to produce the tar sands. And this, in turn, has led to skyrocketing costs...such that now, the real "profit" in producing the tar sands seems to be in government tax breaks, not in actual profit on the resource itself.

In fact, the Canadian tar sands operations are facing a whole host of challenges, beyond economic--so much so, that one wonders why we try to harvest them at all.


In an area the size of Florida, Alberta's tar sands are said to hold 315 billion barrels of crude oil.

But trying we are: according to the respected energy analytics firm Wood Mackenzie (WoodMac), about $117 billion is going to be spent on the tar sands by 2015.

Let's look at some of the challenges.

Cost Inflation

In a fine demonstration of the receding horizons paradox, WoodMac issued a report in March entitled "The Cost of Playing in the Oil Sands," which showed a 55% cost increase since 2005 for a peak flowing barrel of oil derived from the tar sands.

They further noted that in 2006 alone, many of the large tar sands developers announced cost increases and project delays, as they experienced an average 32% cost increase for integrated mining projects, and a 26% increase for in situ projects.

For example, last year Shell Canada shook investors when it revealed that its Athabascan tar sands operation would cost $11 billion Canadian to expand its operation by only 100,000 barrels per day-six times the original cost estimate, which was made only about eight years earlier.

Around the same time, a research report by Merrill Lynch said the cost increase would mean that the Athabasca project would only make about a 10% return on its investment if oil were to remain at least $50 per barrel!

WoodMac analyst Conor Bint issued a clear warning about the tar sands' receding profitability horizon, saying, "Companies in the oil sands will have to control capital expenditures going forward to ensure that project breakeven prices do not exceed current levels in order to remain profitable."

And what are the cost-inflating culprits, according to Bint?

The usual litany: labor shortages and skyrocketing material costs. "With the sheer number of oil sands projects together with the future arctic pipelines and conventional oil and gas developments in Alberta, labour demands in Canada will be pushed to their limits."

Which sort of calls bullshit on their helpful tip that good project management and contractor scheduling will help keep costs in line. No doubt, you must carefully watch your labor hours when your typical field hand is pulling down "combat pay" in the six figures. But that isn't going to help you a bit when tires, steel, machines, and basic metals are all going through the roof under the crush of increasing global demand, primarily driven by Asia, and primarily due to high oil costs. For example, the price of steel is up 70% in just the last five years.

In a recent essay on the cost inflation of conventional oil projects ("Upstream Economics and the Future Oil Supply"), oil analyst Dave Cohen made the shrewd observation that "the situation presents a classic Catch-22," where "the cure for industry inflation is a slowdown in upstream activity, whereas the initial goal was to accelerate upstream development to meet growing global oil demand."

Cohen notes that the cost of finding and producing oil has outpaced the growth in the price of oil. While oil has risen about 32% since 2005, costs have increased about 79%.

Given that the cost of finding and producing conventional oil is in the neighborhood of one-fifth that of producing tar sands, this is not an investment-friendly scenario.

Finance

Naturally, the aforementioned factors are leading to questions about the long-term viability of the tar sands industry, and slowing the pace of financing for its projects.

For not only are costs rising, they're rising faster every year, across the board: for labor, materials, and energy. And in all likelihood, taxes and pollution-related costs will soon join the list.



Each of these trucks weighs more than two 747 airplanes. "It's like driving your house downtown."

For example, Canadian Natural Resources Ltd. said in March it wouldn't move forward with its plans to build an upgrader plant due to runaway costs, and Synenco Energy Inc. shelved its upgrader in May. Likewise, last year France's Total SA announced that it was pushing its tar sands project back by three years, again due to soaring costs for labor and materials.

"I don't think it's an anomaly," says Mark Friesen, a Calgary-based analyst at FirstEnergy Capital Corp. "I think it's an indication of how difficult the environment is. If we're not careful, more projects may end up being delayed or cancelled."

Delays are now becoming endemic to tar sands operations. Major equipment such as cokers and metallurgical towers now have waiting times of two years or more, more than double the wait of three years ago. (Now there's an obvious investment opportunity.)

A shifting landscape of taxation also dogs tar sands ambitions. The removal this year of a significant tax advantage for Canada's income trusts, which have been among the largest backers of tar sands projects, caused Canadian Oil Sands, one of the largest trusts, to post its first net loss in its 10-year history.

An accelerated capital cost allowance that was initially offered to drive investment in the sands has also been removed this year, which should net the federal government an additional $1.4 billion or so.

But perhaps the biggest financial threat is a change in the royalty rates. For over a decade, Alberta sought to attract financing by offering a mere 1% royalty rate until the initial costs of the projects are paid off, at which point the rate reverts to 25%.

It's no surprise then that tar sands developers appear to be gaming the system by extending their "initial" investment in phases over a period of years, effectively stretching out the time they can take advantage of the 1% rate.

That rate typically translates to less than 50 cents on a $70 barrel for Alberta's coffers. On the roughly $15 billion in tar sand revenue in 2004, Alberta took home only $700 million. And the $905 million that Alberta took in last year was actually less than it garnered from lotteries.

Consequently, Alberta is eyeing some additional changes to its tax structure for tar sands. It doesn't want to be accused of bait-and-switch tactics, but it's also facing the aforementioned increasing costs for all public services. At the same time, it is looking at an overall decline in income, due to the winding down of its conventional oil and gas operations, which pay up to 40% in royalty rates.

And let's face it: given the immense challenges ahead of us for liquid fuels, thanks to peak oil, and the desperation of oil companies to find anything worth investing in at this point, a 1% royalty rate seems an outright steal of natural capital from the people of Canada. No wonder that a public consultation process on the taxation of tar sands projects is now under way.

If the royalties on the tar sands were allowed to rise to anywhere near the normal levels for oil-around 40%, not 1%-the entire industry would cease to be. The profit would vanish, simple as that.

Next week, we'll look at the rest of the tar sands' troubles: water, energy, labor, and the environment.

Until next time,

Chris

Many thanks to Roel Mayer for his contributions to this piece.

Tax subsidies, eh?
Canadian ethanol.

Thanks for the great article. Well presented, clear explanantions without overuse of technical terms, and a horrifying picture or two. Well, I personally find it horrible that we're considering strip mining an area that size. I hope against hope that the entire operation will grind to a halt, but fear profitablility will continue to be provided by our ever-generous to large corporations government.

The removal this year of a significant tax advantage for Canada's income trusts
For those who don't know that may be talking about, income trusts were essentially a tax loophole that had major corporations re-defining themselves as income trusts, to avoid what are already low corporate profit tax rates. It was a rare sensible taxation move from the conservative government.

"Well, I personally find it horrible that we're considering strip mining an area that size."

Yeah? Funny know no seems to have a problem with mountaintop removal blasting in the hills of the U.S. Appalachian Mountains in one of the most ecologically diverse areas in the world, not even even that great greenie Al Gore, who lives within less than a day's driving distance. Instead, effort is expended at fighting windpower and laughing at solar development.

Our bizarre fuzzy logic is sickening.

RC

The explosives used for "mountaintop removal" in West Virginia are equivalent to 270 Hiroshima bombs, every year.

Good analysis. The twin limits of financial risk and actual or impending factor limitations are actually - literally - crowding out much-needed conventional and conservation-related investment.

A good example of forced savings: The prospect of steady and growing (post-peak!) returns for 25-30+ years in tar sands makes oil and gas drilling with uncertain near term price outlook, especially in blowdown, uneconomic. We are neglecting near-term drilling for long term payout. The reverse of usual North American commercial practices!

Huge amounts c. $100k plus per flowing bbl or another $400 billion (plus escalations) to get to 5mm bbl by 2020, as some wish, start to crowd out and increase cost of all other kinds of investments. Result: Conventional oil and gas and most other energy investment has been dead money for three years. Remarkable at this stage.

I thinmk tar sands will top out at 3.5 mm bbl maximum and take many more years tif ever to reach 5 mm bbl. Unless, of course, large subsidies like water are forthcoming.

Suprised there was no mention of the THAI technology gail mentioned last week:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/petrobank_ready.html

If this is all its said to be cracked up to be 5 million barrels a day may be a low number.

Antidoomer...

What's your upbeat assessment of the strip mining photo...

Any ideas on who gets to finance the clean-up?

The stip mining is not good, but if you look at the THAI technology in the link, no strip mining in necessary. It appears to be clean and relatively uninvasive.

Antidoomer,
What's THAI technology? Any good links?

Toe-to-Heel Air Injection (THAI) sounds good in theory. but many questions remain.

How resource-intensive is this process, especially in terms of water? I do see a waste stream chart, but I am not sure of the size of the project it is related to.

Speaking of waste, the analysis of pollution generated seems to focus on storing contaminated water from doing the THAI process. I do wonder what additional effects the process will have that are presently unknown or simply not convenient to talk about.

As with most enthusiastic releases of partial information about new technologies, I see no real breakdown of project costs and benefits. The all-important issue of externalities is also left undiscussed.

It is swell to be enthusiastic about new technology, but in addition to questions of real costs and benefits, one might also ask whether or not the whole project of expending so much of our current resources on extracting even more stuff to burn in cars is really the best focus.

Of course the Free Market knows all, so not to worry. The Free Market is God, as we all know. Does God exist? Or if God exists, must God be the Devil?

The "market forces" driving this development are predicated on completely false models of reality, are they not?

Smart people in the neighborhoods I work in maintain careful suppression of such questions about the way in which our rather fragile coccoon requires destruction of our larger and real ecological economy.

Whether doctor, banker, lawyer, or engineer working on biofuels, few are yet willing to acknowledge -- let alone critically examine -- the human cultural dimensions which are the core response our ecological predicament calls for.

THAI seems to me to be another tool in the toolbox for maintaining intentional ignorance about our ecological economic predicament, which is far more serious than any financial economic predicaments we can imagine.

Used in a limited way, THAI might be helpful -- but also not economical in terms of our current understanding of economics

Used in a conventionally economical way -- if that does work out -- THAI will be integrated into a system that has already mortally wounded our habitat, demands ignorance of this fact, and refuses to countenance critical examination of our human predicament in order to allow for poitive strategies of healing to emerge.

E. O. Wilson put it best:

"The human hammer having fallen, the sixth massextinction has begun. This spasm of permanent loss is expected, if it is not abated, to reach the end-ofMesozoic level by the end of the century. We will then enter what poets and scientists alike may choose to call the Eromozoic Era -- the Age of Loneliness. We will have done it all on our own, and conscious of what was happening. God's will is not to blame."

(From "The Creation" Chapter 10, "End Game," page 91)

I do discuss THAI, briefly, in part two, coming out next week. But I don't regard it as being terribly significant because it's nowhere near commercial deployment in volume yet.

--Chris
Energy consultant, writer, blogger www.getreallist.com

The Oil Junkie's Last Fix, indeed. That phrase pretty much says it all.

Superb article. I do think that the maps and photos help to understand the huge investment we have in continuing the status quo.

I question why we put so much into "developing the oil sands" rather than in examining our human relationship to energy and other resources and our habitat in general.

This relates back to questions regarding the Iron Triangle and also to the strange combinations of characteristics our species possesses at this time with regard to our inability to act in favor of our own survival.

Homo sapiens occupies a small niche in a large, complex shared habitat. Our self interest is best served by preserving the habitat of our planet for the great variety of species with which we share it. Our conventional strategies for survival actually kill off other species by destroying their habitat with increasing fury.

So the oil sands seem like another chapter in the biography which chronicles the self-destructive behaviour of a junky gone mad for another fix.

A bit of culture change is long overdue.

More people should pay attention to archeology, and cultural anthropology. The world is filled with examples of earlier civilizations that went extinct because they used up their resources, or succumbed to some natural catastrophe. All you need is a shovel. I'm sure those civilizations had the same kind of discussions and such that we are having today.

"More people should pay attention to archeology, and cultural anthropology. The world is filled with examples of earlier civilizations that went extinct because they used up their resources, or succumbed to some natural catastrophe."

(oh boy, time for a little rant)

What point does that make? They would have never been civilizations at all if they hadn't got off their stuupid azz and tried to do something, so we would not be able to use them for examples of anything could we?

The one sure way never to make a mistake is to never do anything.

Now, having said that, I have said from the start I felt that the Tar Sands were a dead end, for purely economical reasons and becuase of the waste of natural gas in producing it. Do I feel it will in fact be produced?

Probably so, but not as a commercial fuel. The tar sands and the North American oil shale can provide the U.S. military establishment with all the fuel it will need to remain a great world power for at least the next two or three centuries, if nuclear is used to extract it.

Hidious thought you say? Maybe. But the military establishments of the world do not have the terror of nuclear power the civilians do. The still live within yards of working reactors everyday (on subs and aircraft carriers)

Plus, they are already up to their azz in nuclear waste to deal with anyway, what's a few more tons going to matter if it extracts high quality liquid fuel for the most modern military machine in the world.

So, they wait for the civilians to fall on their face and agree to come and "rescue" the industry for national security purposes.

See, the problem is that the folks at TOD think that a phrase such as "our lifestyle is non-negotiable" is a freakin' joke.

It''s NOT. We have soldiars suffering and dying everyday in the deserts of Iraq and the hills of Afghanistan. Do you think the security systems will balk from the fear of a little bit of nuclear activity out in the middle of the arctic outback?

These people aren't foolin around. They are their supporters will die to avoid having themselves and their children going back and livng like a bunch of fvckin' apes in the trees whose biggest earthly accomplishment is pickin' the ticks out of their azz. Some may dream of that. Let them go do it.
Many will fight it to the last blow. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

If you don't want the oil sands and the nukes and the shale, or at least just want to stay the helll away from it, you best be helping come up with better alternatives instead of laughing at all attempts.
(end of rant...and all names were omitted to protect the guil.....opps, the innocent! :-)

RC

You missed my point entirely. I've mentioned in other threads that we will fight over the table scraps. But history can teach us some useful lessons if we are smart enough to listen.

As for the military, please don't presume to lecture me. I spent 20 years in the USMC to preserve your's and every other citizens right to bitch about whatever blows your skirts up. I swore an oath to protect and defend this country against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and I've never gone back on it. Have a nice day, and go a little easy on the drugs and alky.

And just so you do not misunderstand, even not knowing your history, I was in no way attempting to lecture you. If it was taken in that way, you have my apology.

On the military issue, first, let me do the right thing: Thank you for your service in what is a hard and under rewarding profession. I live next to a military base that my father worked at for over 30 years, have uncles and great uncles who have served thier life in the military. I have not served myself, and due to that great peacetime run we had after Vietnam, I was never called to.

And to make my point clear, it was that the efforts of the American government and military should indicate to anyone that we do in fact intend to continue on a modern state and a world power. Some may differ with those goals. That is their right. But those are the facts on the ground.

The "cost structure" and goals are a bit different when it is a security issue. No one really argues about the exact retail price of an F-18 or an aircraft carrier if it is percieved that is what needed to survive and prevail.

On history, that is a bit closer to an area I have dealt with than the military.
I absolutely agree that study of history in our current situation is vital to assist understanding of paths taken. However, it is easy to misinterpret history. Caution must be taken. G.W. Bush for example used history as an example, and cast Saddam as Hitler, all who questioned the Iraq war as Chamberlian in 1938 England and himself as the Churchill. Was that a correct use of the lessons of history? You be the judge. But it silenced all opposition at the time.

To America's ememies I beg you...do not underestimate the resolve of this government and this nation to survive. Please do not. The human suffering has already been great in making that error. Bin Laden and the gangs who desire our destruction (and despite the knee jerk anti-Americanism we often see, they are very real) can get a few of us. But they did not bring a big enough dog to the fight to win their stated prize of our destruction. Instead, they have assisted in bringing real horror on the whole of the Middle East.
Was that their goal? Educated Muslims and Arabs should ask themselves that question.

Back to point.....nuclear devices in the tar sand and the oil shale regions to extact millions of barrels of usable oil? They'll do it. The Canadians will do it, because they, like us, will in the end refuse to be carved up by our mutual enemies.

And if that sounds fueled by "drugs and alky" you go back over it and let me know where you proved me wrong. All lessons will be taken as a gift thank you.

RC

al Queda & friends whipped the Russians soundly - they bled them and bled them, no matter what was thrown at them. The Soviet Union, as we'll recall, crashed and burned after spending themselves in Aghanistan.

Now the United States is caught in the same trap. 150,000 troops pinned in Iraq, a half a trillion dollar crater in our national balance sheet, another division's worth of troops in Afghanistan not getting near the beating we're taking in Iraq, but Pakistan(nukes!) is sliding into chaos, with Waziristan breaking free, and the British abandoning their position in Iraq so their troops can face real threats in Afghanistan.

The military we've constructed to defeat the Soviet Union in an organized land battle in Europe is not quite useless in a low intensity conflict in Iraq. Should We, The People decide to conduct a genocidal war in Iraq in order to control their oil it may again be effective. This strikes me as madness, but I look at our neocon assclowns (industry term - diplomacy) and I think that this will be the case.

There is some debate as to what caused The Soviet Union to collapse. As I understand it, there is some consensus here that it was caused by Saudi Arabia (on orders from America) flooding the world oil market with cheap oil. Russian oil revenue quickly shriveled, and then did their empire.

The United States is not in the same trap as The Soviet Union. We still control Saudi Arabia, which is to say, we still control the world oil market. Russia never did.

We still control Saudi Arabia
“I would work with our friends in OPEC to convince them to open up the spigot, to increase the supply. Use the capital that my administration will earn, with the Kuwaitis or the Saudis, and convince them to open up the spigot.”
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/More_George_W__Bush_Energy_+_Oil.htm

I'm sure Bush understands, as we do, that there is no spigot to open. This is rhetoric. Next! :)

The articles in Foreign Affairs indicate we've flat burned that relationship by our stupid, unipolar actions in Iraq. Yeah, we're the big dog, but we're half blind, toothless, and peeing on the carpet ... the Saudis, the Syrians, the Turks, and the Iranians are all delighted(NOT) by our antics. History is full of examples of what happens to empires that overreach in the face of no opposition ... the smaller players gather round and form a thwarting party.

bmcnett,
Are you sure you don't have the control relationship reversed, "white slave" ?

The Saudis didn't open the tap to destroy the Russians, they did it because Jimmy Carter's energy policies were working, an demand destruction from high prices. Go look again at the charts of world consumption and price history, and read what they said at the time. Attributing anything to Reagan except White House naps is on awfully shaky ground.
Bob Ebersole

I will go give it a look, thanks Bob.

The control relationship is not as simple as "white slavery."

We need them because they have a lot of cheap oil, and we need to control who gets it and on what terms.

They need us, because without our weapons, their monarchy would collapse.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh. This (misunderstandings) is the primary reason I dislike controversial discussions conducted on the internet. It's far too easy for everyone concerned to get their dander up. 'nuf said. Perhaps we can start over on a more amicable note.

My name is Gene. I'm in my '60's, on my 3rd career (avocation rather than a "job"), married for 36 years, reasonably comfortable in life, and expect to be around for another 20 years or so if family history is any guide. Pleased to meet you.

Just as a point of technical interest, you ( and others )may or may not be aware of an organization called DARPA. If not, I'd recommend visiting their website. In particular, this http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrusts/physci/index.htm may be a good starting point to see what sort of basic science is being done that will likely have civilian as well as military applications for energy interests. You won't get a lot of detail, but the site is quite extensive, and extraordinarily interesting and informative.

And if you have a potential solution applicable to one of their thrust areas, they will be glad to throw some money your way.

For anyone who wishes to harm this nation, and who might be reading this, they would also do well to review this site. It may change their minds. Keep in mind that this is all public information, so one can infer that "more interesting" work is also being done. :)

These are the folks who actually did invent the internet by the way.

Gene,

I'm glad you found The Oil Drum and are sticking around and commenting. Your service is your best credential, it shows your sincerity and sense of honor. The best part of being a Marine is your loyalty to each other and to the rest of us in this country.

I suspect we disagree a lot politicly, and I was one of the immature assholes that couldn't appreciate the true patriotism of men who saw their duty and no matter what, did the deal. These days I can see how wrong I was then, and I'd like to thank you for your service to the country and the rest of us, even when we are wrong. Semper Fi sums it up.

Bob Ebersole

Gene,

I'm glad you found The Oil Drum and are sticking around and commenting. Your service is your best credential, it shows your sincerity and sense of honor. The best part of being a Marine is your loyalty to each other and to the rest of us in this country.

I suspect we disagree a lot politicly, and I was one of the immature assholes that couldn't appreciate the true patriotism of men who saw their duty and no matter what, did the deal. These days I can see how wrong I was then, and I'd like to thank you for your service to the country and the rest of us, even when we are wrong. Semper Fi sums it up.

Bob Ebersole

Maybe not so much (re: political views). Career military folks have a somewhat more long term view of things than this or any former occupant of the White House or Congress. Many people misunderstand from the getgo where the militaries loyalties truly are. It's not with any individual. It's to the Nation as a whole, regardless of who happens to be in office at the moment. Politicians of whatever persuasion sometimes forget that, and need to be gently reminded from time to time. Even the Commander-In-Chief.

It also works in the other direction, at some degradation in efficiency but it's worth the cost. There is a reason the US Military does not have a single service, but rather several "branches" with some overlapping functions and cooperative tasks, but with separate chains of command (USAF,Army, Navy, Marines, etc.). It is to preclude one branch from having too much power, thereby avoiding the kind of military dictatorships that consume many other countries. Periodically someone will propose that the services merge for the sake of cost efficiency, etc. Bad idea, and never goes very far for the reason stated above.

Do you think that Bush has cultivated personal loyalty within the military, or perhaps I should say loyalty to dominionist sensibilities above service to the nation?

I think this, a former girlfriend who is a reserve captain shares that view, and an airforce major I dated before her had done the academy thing and while she wasn't forward about her beliefs I think she was in favor of that whole Christian Embassy thing ...

I'm curious to hear the views of someone who served prior to the Bush administration's poisoning of every single institution we have.

:) "I'm curious to hear the views of someone who served prior to the Bush administration's poisoning of every single institution we have."

I have to smile a little at that. I've heard this nearly identical statement more than once in the past 40 years or so applied to every President since Eisenhower. "Poisoning of institutions" ( such as the military for example ) isn't quite as easy as you seem to think. In general terms, every elected leader since G. Washington has tried to "cultivate personal loyalty" to a greater or lesser extent. Usually unsuccessfully, since we have a thing called "Term Limits" - at least for the Presidency - so career people know they will be around long after that individual has departed. Lends a different perspective. As has been said: "Patience grasshopper, this too shall pass." :)

In any case I think my personal political views of Pres. Bush are mine. I don't mean to sound uncooperative, but I don't discuss personal politics, religion, personal finances, and several other subjects with anyone, let alone complete strangers. Sorry.

Gene
I spent most of last year in El Paso, and the motels I were at were full of career Army, Army Reserve and contractors that were retired military. I got to be friends with some of them, and was very impressed.

One thing I'd like to note in particular-the Reserve kids were truly fine young men and women. They'd mostly joined as a way to work their way through college without crippling debt, they represent the best kids in our country, they have a great work effort and a sense of duty and service. And, the administration has horribly abused them by putting them in this war.

The retired military and professional military were first rate too. The retired guys were a little more vocal, but it was easy to tell they didn't support the war, but, they'd taken the money and they were going to follow through with their duty, it was both a personal sense of honor and loyalty to their fellow servicemen.

So it was a real eye-opener to me. I began to see that we all need to see our common heritage as Americans and celebrate the things that we all hold in common-we all love this country and do what we do out of the same motives, we want the best for the country and the world. Sure, there's some nut and sociopaths that would rather divide us because they see manipulation as their personal path to power and wealth. Unfortunately, way too many of them are in politics and the media.

But, my father was a marine in WWII and Korea. My grandfather was an Army Medic serving with the Marines at St. Michael, the Argonne and Belleau Woods. I was born at Quantico, but Viet Nam kept me from being a Marine, and I'm not sorry about that. As I said, thanks for your service!Bob Ebersole

Bob, I appreciate your comments and your views as well as those of others. I really do. But, I fear this subthread may stir up peoples feelings on one side or the other of past or present disputes, or dredge up ancient history, or digress into areas that will likely only end up in acrimonious and pointless arguement. So, if you're agreeable, I'd just as soon end it here.

I pretty much agree with the military aspect. This week's North American get together was probably more than Hi, how are you.

As for your thoughts on wind the other day,

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"-Twain

I don't mean to be flippant, just that I think that wind has a long way to go, and will. Though perhaps not off Long Island.

"As for your thoughts on wind the other day,

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"-Twain"

I hope your right.

RC

ThatsItImOut wrote:

What point does that make? They would have never been civilizations at all if they hadn't got off their stuupid azz and tried to do something, so we would not be able to use them for examples of anything could we?

You presume that civilization is a good thing. Civilization is, in fact, a kind of fire that burns away the natural world, until cheap fuel runs out, when it collapses, destroying those who supported it.

The Inuit (Eskimo) and Kalahari Bushmen have no civilization, but peak oil won't be any problem for them. They won't even notice.

I refer you to Jared Diamond's article for "Discover Magazine," "The Worst Mistake In the History of the Human Race."

http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/agron342/diamondmistake.html

bmcnett:

You said:

The Inuit (Eskimo) and Kalahari Bushmen have no civilization, but peak oil won't be any problem for them. They won't even notice.

This seems to me to be a really bizzare thing to suggest. Both the Innu and San cultures have been deeply changed by the dominant societies that have surrounded them.

It would be way "off thread" to detail this but please let me suggest that you do some basic research into current conditions.

A few links however...

Archbishop Tutus appeal to the Gov't of Botswana and others to refrain from further efforts to destroy the San people (they want the lands for diamond mining and "eco-tourism", and now AIDS is getting a foothold there):

http://www.survival-international.org/news/2016

Wade Davis speaking at TED on the state of the "ethnosphere"
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/69

Of course these people have been deeply affected by agriculturalists and fossil-f